Feb 18, 2023·edited Feb 18, 2023Liked by Scipio Eruditus
"Come, let us reason together..." indeed. In order to reason we must have a certain amount of objectivity, we must be open to the idea that some of our perceived notions are wrong. That I, as a mason, am reading your writings should be testament that I possess a certain amount of that. I admit that a lot of it is because , regardless if I agree with you, I think you are a very good writer. I spent 8 long years reading 8 to 10hrs a day, so I consider myself an experienced reader. You encouraged me to read a few of the epistles, sound advice, I have. Having said that , you have the advantage over me on your ability to express yourself in writing, but I will do my best, being the simple man that I am. As I said the truth should be the highest aim for all of us. I by no means consider myself a masonic scholar, I've only been a mason 4yrs, so I'm not speaking for masonry, I'm sharing my experiences and my perceptions.
About the veneration of light. There are so many Bible verses concerning light that I can't even begin to list them all, most notable is probably John 8:12 “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”. Not once have I have had the impression that I was worshiping anything in the lodge, much less light, the references of light are symbolic for searching for the truth. It's interesting that you posted an excerpt from Duncan's Masonic Ritual. Why not post the whole obligation? So others can see just exactly what it is that makes a man a Mason. Reading in full, it doesn't seem that nefarious. Also in that excerpt it said "kiss the book", what tome do you think that is? Upon being brought to light what is the first thing that person sees resting between his hands? It's the Holy Bible. When I became a master mason I was presented a bible and told "The light you seek is in there". That is the only tome recognized. All anti masonic rhetoric ends up with Pike, Mackey and Hall, in the 4yrs I've been a mason not once have any of these three been mentioned much less their writings. I understand the slippery slope between revelation and illumination or enlightenment, the Gnostics went through that several hundred years ago. You posted a picture of a York Rite lodge, I am only speaking from what I have experienced, I don't know what all is in that picture, but I do see the Holy Bible. It is my understanding that the last degree of the York Rite, the Knights Templar, requires you to be a Christian, but I won't speak on that which I have no experience with, but I will say if I were to continue on in masonry it would probably be in that order, although I have the utmost respect for the Shriners, the ones I know are very committed to helping those children, judge a tree by it's fruit. On a side note there are two flags in my lodge, the US flag and the flag of Christendom, so in my lodge there is a cross, although I have read somewhere that the flag of Christendom had pagan origins, when you have a hammer everything's a nail.
Yours is not the first anti-masonic message I have read, I've read many, Bill Cooper's "Behold a pale horse" comes to mind, but with all I had read I wasn't able to reconcile that with the men I knew that were masons, so I decided to have a look for myself and I'm sharing with you that experience. Sometimes that best men can do is agree to disagree. As I said I sure wasn't trying to recruit you or even convince you of anything, just share my experiences. Perhaps it's best to look at the things we do agree on, Christ is the way, the truth and the life, the blood atonement and someday we will stand before him and give an account for our lives, hopefully you'll be standing in line behind me because the wretched life I used to live will make you look good. As I said I am no masonic scholar, I have just given an honest account of my experience, but in my searching and reading I did come across this link that does a much better explanation of masonry than I could do and to which I found nothing that I would disagree with, please have a look. https://brlodge.org/about/responding-to-critics/ I will look forward to reading more of your work, God Bless
Still working on a response to your comments, I'll publish a sequel to this convo Monday. I wanted to thank you for the discourse so far, it's been productive
The name Lucifer is only mentioned once in the Bible and as far as I can tell commentaries are in agreement that it is the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar II being referred to.
Isaiah 14:12 King James Bible
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
There is a great deal of disagreement about the interpretation of that chapter, I’d hardly say it’s a settled matter. I would venture to say it’s one of the more hotly debated verses amongst Biblical linguists in modern times. Some think it refers to Nebuchadnezzar, others such as myself see clear reference to Satan’s characteristics in the descriptions within chapter 14, and some interpret it as a dual condemnation of both.
If we read the entire chapter 14 of Isaiah the descriptions of this ruler and his fall align with Jesus’ description of Satan’s fall in Luke 10:18. We also see in 2 Corinthians 11:14 that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. There is a great deal of scripture that backs up this interpretation, and the idea that Isaiah is not referring to Satan is a rather modern viewpoint.
When Jesus refers to himself in Revelation 22:16 as the morning star, it is an assertion of His authority. It is one of the last verses of the Holy Bible. It is Christ’s last message to his people. And it is a declaration that Satans false light can not compare to Christ’s true light. Christ is the light of world and He is the one who brings us out of darkness, not the imitator, Lucifer.
Revelation 22:16-21 KJV
16 I, Jesus, have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
I intended to write much more than I'm able to this morning. We have entered calving season so now my mornings are not my own, the cattle have decided how I'll spend them, but here is just one of some interesting links I've found on the subject. https://www.newjerseygrandlodge.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Lucifer-or-Satan.pdf. As I said I tried to read Pike and simply couldn't, so I can't speak much on his work. He was from a time when flowery oratory was the fashion and seemed to write in the same vein. I have not read anything of Mackey. I did read a couple of Halls works and know he was involved heavily in theosophy and focused on comparative religion. That was the impression I received when I read him, he put a lot of effort into trying to tie everything together. I did find it interesting that all the books that Hall wrote on the subject of Freemasonry was from the 20s and 30s, but he didn't become a mason until 1951, so everything he wrote was from the outside looking in. I will try to touch on another point in the morning if time allows and I don't wake up to having to pull a calf. Thank you for you patience, God Bless
Last comment, if you really want to get the lowdown on evil get Michael Hoffman's book, "Judaism Discovered". It makes Freemasonry look tame in comparison.
Thank you for your time. First, I was not trying to recruit you and as I said I am not trying to convince you of anything. I merely suggested that you could join a lodge and get first hand knowledge of what's going on in there. It's interesting that when I first mentioned it you entertained the idea and said you would give it some though, I could almost sense the recoil when you found out I was a mason, your position changed instantly. Regardless about what you write about Freemasonry I am not your enemy and wish you no ill will. The search for truth should be the highest aim of all of us. Oaths are a serious matter, we take wedding vows, military and law enforcement take oaths to defend the constitution, doctors take oaths to do no harm, and we place our hand on the Bible and give an oath when giving testimony in a court of law. I'm not saying the verse is irrelevant by no means, but when studying scripture it is important to get context. When James wrote that the habit of swearing by various things was a very common one among the Jews, and it was important to guard those who from among them had been converted to Christianity on that subject. I have started looking into these claims of Luciferian and Freemasonry and it is quite interesting. I am by no means done responding to this post and will continue with it in the morning and go into Pike and Hall, but now I have to go to work. Thank you for your time, God bless
"Come, let us reason together..." indeed. In order to reason we must have a certain amount of objectivity, we must be open to the idea that some of our perceived notions are wrong. That I, as a mason, am reading your writings should be testament that I possess a certain amount of that. I admit that a lot of it is because , regardless if I agree with you, I think you are a very good writer. I spent 8 long years reading 8 to 10hrs a day, so I consider myself an experienced reader. You encouraged me to read a few of the epistles, sound advice, I have. Having said that , you have the advantage over me on your ability to express yourself in writing, but I will do my best, being the simple man that I am. As I said the truth should be the highest aim for all of us. I by no means consider myself a masonic scholar, I've only been a mason 4yrs, so I'm not speaking for masonry, I'm sharing my experiences and my perceptions.
About the veneration of light. There are so many Bible verses concerning light that I can't even begin to list them all, most notable is probably John 8:12 “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”. Not once have I have had the impression that I was worshiping anything in the lodge, much less light, the references of light are symbolic for searching for the truth. It's interesting that you posted an excerpt from Duncan's Masonic Ritual. Why not post the whole obligation? So others can see just exactly what it is that makes a man a Mason. Reading in full, it doesn't seem that nefarious. Also in that excerpt it said "kiss the book", what tome do you think that is? Upon being brought to light what is the first thing that person sees resting between his hands? It's the Holy Bible. When I became a master mason I was presented a bible and told "The light you seek is in there". That is the only tome recognized. All anti masonic rhetoric ends up with Pike, Mackey and Hall, in the 4yrs I've been a mason not once have any of these three been mentioned much less their writings. I understand the slippery slope between revelation and illumination or enlightenment, the Gnostics went through that several hundred years ago. You posted a picture of a York Rite lodge, I am only speaking from what I have experienced, I don't know what all is in that picture, but I do see the Holy Bible. It is my understanding that the last degree of the York Rite, the Knights Templar, requires you to be a Christian, but I won't speak on that which I have no experience with, but I will say if I were to continue on in masonry it would probably be in that order, although I have the utmost respect for the Shriners, the ones I know are very committed to helping those children, judge a tree by it's fruit. On a side note there are two flags in my lodge, the US flag and the flag of Christendom, so in my lodge there is a cross, although I have read somewhere that the flag of Christendom had pagan origins, when you have a hammer everything's a nail.
Yours is not the first anti-masonic message I have read, I've read many, Bill Cooper's "Behold a pale horse" comes to mind, but with all I had read I wasn't able to reconcile that with the men I knew that were masons, so I decided to have a look for myself and I'm sharing with you that experience. Sometimes that best men can do is agree to disagree. As I said I sure wasn't trying to recruit you or even convince you of anything, just share my experiences. Perhaps it's best to look at the things we do agree on, Christ is the way, the truth and the life, the blood atonement and someday we will stand before him and give an account for our lives, hopefully you'll be standing in line behind me because the wretched life I used to live will make you look good. As I said I am no masonic scholar, I have just given an honest account of my experience, but in my searching and reading I did come across this link that does a much better explanation of masonry than I could do and to which I found nothing that I would disagree with, please have a look. https://brlodge.org/about/responding-to-critics/ I will look forward to reading more of your work, God Bless
Still working on a response to your comments, I'll publish a sequel to this convo Monday. I wanted to thank you for the discourse so far, it's been productive
Great work! thankyou.
The name Lucifer is only mentioned once in the Bible and as far as I can tell commentaries are in agreement that it is the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar II being referred to.
Isaiah 14:12 King James Bible
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
There is a great deal of disagreement about the interpretation of that chapter, I’d hardly say it’s a settled matter. I would venture to say it’s one of the more hotly debated verses amongst Biblical linguists in modern times. Some think it refers to Nebuchadnezzar, others such as myself see clear reference to Satan’s characteristics in the descriptions within chapter 14, and some interpret it as a dual condemnation of both.
If we read the entire chapter 14 of Isaiah the descriptions of this ruler and his fall align with Jesus’ description of Satan’s fall in Luke 10:18. We also see in 2 Corinthians 11:14 that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. There is a great deal of scripture that backs up this interpretation, and the idea that Isaiah is not referring to Satan is a rather modern viewpoint.
When Jesus refers to himself in Revelation 22:16 as the morning star, it is an assertion of His authority. It is one of the last verses of the Holy Bible. It is Christ’s last message to his people. And it is a declaration that Satans false light can not compare to Christ’s true light. Christ is the light of world and He is the one who brings us out of darkness, not the imitator, Lucifer.
Revelation 22:16-21 KJV
16 I, Jesus, have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
A well-thought-out reply and thank you.
I intended to write much more than I'm able to this morning. We have entered calving season so now my mornings are not my own, the cattle have decided how I'll spend them, but here is just one of some interesting links I've found on the subject. https://www.newjerseygrandlodge.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Lucifer-or-Satan.pdf. As I said I tried to read Pike and simply couldn't, so I can't speak much on his work. He was from a time when flowery oratory was the fashion and seemed to write in the same vein. I have not read anything of Mackey. I did read a couple of Halls works and know he was involved heavily in theosophy and focused on comparative religion. That was the impression I received when I read him, he put a lot of effort into trying to tie everything together. I did find it interesting that all the books that Hall wrote on the subject of Freemasonry was from the 20s and 30s, but he didn't become a mason until 1951, so everything he wrote was from the outside looking in. I will try to touch on another point in the morning if time allows and I don't wake up to having to pull a calf. Thank you for you patience, God Bless
Last comment, if you really want to get the lowdown on evil get Michael Hoffman's book, "Judaism Discovered". It makes Freemasonry look tame in comparison.
Also, both Jesus and Satan are called the morning star.
AND, I have read the actual name Lucifer was a bad translation.
Thank you for your time. First, I was not trying to recruit you and as I said I am not trying to convince you of anything. I merely suggested that you could join a lodge and get first hand knowledge of what's going on in there. It's interesting that when I first mentioned it you entertained the idea and said you would give it some though, I could almost sense the recoil when you found out I was a mason, your position changed instantly. Regardless about what you write about Freemasonry I am not your enemy and wish you no ill will. The search for truth should be the highest aim of all of us. Oaths are a serious matter, we take wedding vows, military and law enforcement take oaths to defend the constitution, doctors take oaths to do no harm, and we place our hand on the Bible and give an oath when giving testimony in a court of law. I'm not saying the verse is irrelevant by no means, but when studying scripture it is important to get context. When James wrote that the habit of swearing by various things was a very common one among the Jews, and it was important to guard those who from among them had been converted to Christianity on that subject. I have started looking into these claims of Luciferian and Freemasonry and it is quite interesting. I am by no means done responding to this post and will continue with it in the morning and go into Pike and Hall, but now I have to go to work. Thank you for your time, God bless